[Understand] Mostly Chapter 4

[Phyllis Hinerman]

Jan,  When I first heard Ellin's phrase:  I know you don't know, but if you did know, what would you say?, my reaction was about the same as what you described - that will never work!  Then, I watched Ellin use it with an adult at a workshop with startling results! Later Ellin asked how it made her feel and the teacher answered something like:  'At first I was mad at you for calling on me, using that phrase and leaving all that wait time.  But then I discovered I did have something to say.'  She added, 'I think if you'd have just gone on to someone else I would have felt pretty dumb. But I felt like I had a good answer!'  

We went back to our school and tried it out a little, and it worked there too.  Plus, I've seen it work with a sixth grade student.  I think one of the keys is calm wait time that suggests the confidence that a student can think and you honestly expect a thoughtful answer.  We're thinking the phrase somehow takes the pressure off a student - you aren't looking for the one right answer, and its OK to make a thoughtful guess.

Phyllis

--- On Sun, 8/3/08, write at att.net <write at att.net> wrote:

> From: write at att.net <write at att.net>
> Subject: [Understand] Mostly Chapter 4
> To: "Special Chat List for "To Understand: New Horizons in ReadingComprehension"" <understand at literacyworkshop.org>
> Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 3:50 PM
> I've tried to send this message more than once.  I'm
> sorry if several different versions come through.
> 
> 
> Yes, Jennifer, what the reader brings to the text is
> important.  I'm not a fan of Van Gogh, but I love Edward
> Hopper.  All through chapter 4 I was stuck on what seemed to
> me to be a negative catergorization of Hopper's art. 
> 
> I also felt that I wanted more information about the
> kindergartener Kevin.  I wrote in my previous message (far
> below)
> 
> > The example of the kindergartener,  Kevin, a few pages
> later was more 
> > satisfying for me.  I LOVED that  kid.  I wanted more
> insight into how Kevin was 
> > taught to investigate so  deeply.
> 
> and in my book I wrote that Kevin taught himself how to
> work so hard and think so deeply.
> 
> I am also wondering if what works with elementary students
> might not work with middle school students.  Are there any
> middle school (grades 6 - 8) teachers on this list?  On page
> 77 I had a question about the teacher who responded to a
> student by saying, "I know you don't know." 
> In my class, that statement would cause uproar.  I would be
> accused of calling someone stupid.  Can you really say that
> in your classes?
> Jan
> 
> 
>   -------------- Original message from CNJPALMER at aol.com:
> --------------
> 
> 
> >  
> > Jan
> > Well, here we have another example of how important it
> is to think about  
> what the reader brings to the text.  I loved the Van Gogh
> example because  to 
> > me, 
> > the painting itself WAS the thinking...visual
> representations of his  
> > attempts to make sense of his world. I saw it as a way
> to try to work through or  
> around his illness. I connected it to the journal I keep or
> the emails I send  
> > to 
> > colleagues (Like on the mosaic listserv)  The process
> of writing  helps me to 
> > understand. For Van Gogh, maybe it is the process of
> painting that  helped 
> > him to make sense.
> >  
> > I loved the Kevin example too, but it left me with a
> lot more questions.  How 
> > did he really make that much meaning as a
> kindergartener from this very  
> > difficult text? Was it the process of creating his
> model that he made sense of  
> > it? Was he a reader at all? What or how much did he
> actually read and how much  
> > came from schema and reasoning it through? This was
> the one place in the 
> > entire  book that I felt needed more detail, more
> investigation, more 
> > explanation.
> >  
> > Do you think he was taught to investigate this way?
> Surely his class was  set 
> > up for that and probably his teacher modeled...but I
> bet that a lot of  it 
> > was the natural curiousity of the very young...
> >  
> > Your students may have giggled and rolled their eyes,
> but I would keep it  
> > up. You probably made them feel  uncomfortable because
> they don't yet  see 
> > themselves as scholars. I bet you, with time,
> they'll get there.
> > I am still working on this too. Let's talk about
> this some more during the  
> > school year...I didn't have too much time to try
> much before the school year  
> > ended...
> > Jennifer 
> >  
> 
> =================================================================================
> 
> > n a message dated 7/17/2008 11:39:57 P.M. Eastern
> Daylight Time,  
> > write at att.net writes:
> > 
> > Yes!  There is a great sense of pride that comes from
> working  through 
> > something difficult.
> > 
> > I'm going to share some more of my  struggles with
> To Understand right now. :)
> > 
> > Tell me what you all make of  the information about
> Van Gogh on page 48 that 
> > says, "He became a blind  painting machine... He
> no longer thought about his 
> > painting."  
> > 
> > I  felt as if the example of Van Gogh was
> counterproductive.  I wanted to  
> > hear about a painter who did think about his painting.
>  Van Gogh  struggled, but 
> > I got the idea from To Understand that he struggled
> due to his  mental 
> > illness.  I wanted a clear cut example of someone who
> struggled to  understand 
> > and 
> > think and try again.
> > 
> > The example of the kindergartener,  Kevin, a few pages
> later was more 
> > satisfying for me.  I LOVED that  kid.  I wanted more
> insight into how Kevin was 
> > taught to investigate so  deeply.  
> > 
> > What have you all done to help students learn to look 
> deeply and work to 
> > understand what interests them?  I teach 8th grade, 
> and when I shared my 
> > enthusiasm with my students last year about half of
> them  rolled their eyes or 
> > giggled.  Whew!  That was hard on  me.
> > Jan
> > 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Understand mailing list
> Understand at literacyworkshop.org
> http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org