[Understand] working with the older kids

Mon Aug 4 13:47:42 EDT 2008

Jan--You asked about using the "I know you don't know" dialogue with older kids.  No, I would not say that to the older kids. They are too jaded and would shut down.  I have found with the older ones being straight-up and adult with them will go a long way to avoid that encounter.  I explain that they have been taught to read, but not to comprehend what they read, and so we will be working on that.  They get that--unfortunately--and are on board for the ride.  Of course, they want to improve their understanding and comprehension!  We discuss the strategies and how they work and help.  This seems to break down any inadequacies they may feel of not feeling "smart" enough.  Also, I will sometimes let them write questions/comments after reading that we share in a class discussion.  This works very well and begins to open up a dialogue of which they desire to be a part. It gets the ball rolling as it removes apprehension and fear while the magic begins in the classroom.  Hope this helps
.  

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> Today's Topics: 
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> 1. Mostly Chapter 4 (write at att.net) 
> 2. Re: Mostly Chapter 4 (Phyllis Hinerman) 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 
> 
> Message: 1 
> Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 19:50:10 +0000 
> From: write at att.net 
> Subject: [Understand] Mostly Chapter 4 
> To: "Special Chat List for \"To Understand: New Horizons in 
> ReadingComprehension\"" 
> Message-ID: 
> <080320081950.12111.48960BF0000B7F3800002F4F22218675169B0A02D29B9B0EBF0A 
> 9B079D99 at att.net> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've tried to send this message more than once. I'm sorry if several different 
> versions come through. 
> 
> 
> Yes, Jennifer, what the reader brings to the text is important. I'm not a fan 
> of Van Gogh, but I love Edward Hopper. All through chapter 4 I was stuck on 
> what seemed to me to be a negative catergorization of Hopper's art. 
> 
> I also felt that I wanted more information about the kindergartener Kevin. I 
> wrote in my previous message (far below) 
> 
> > The example of the kindergartener, Kevin, a few pages later was more 
> > satisfying for me. I LOVED that kid. I wanted more insight into how Kevin 
> was 
> > taught to investigate so deeply. 
> 
> and in my book I wrote that Kevin taught himself how to work so hard and think 
> so deeply. 
> 
> I am also wondering if what works with elementary students might not work with 
> middle school students. Are there any middle school (grades 6 - 8) teachers on 
> this list? On page 77 I had a question about the teacher who responded to a 
> student by saying, "I know you don't know." In my class, that statement would 
> cause uproar. I would be accused of calling someone stupid. Can you really say 
> that in your classes? 
> Jan 
> 
> 
> -------------- Original message from CNJPALMER at aol.com: -------------- 
> 
> 
> > 
> > Jan 
> > Well, here we have another example of how important it is to think about 
> what the reader brings to the text. I loved the Van Gogh example because to 
> > me, 
> > the painting itself WAS the thinking...visual representations of his 
> > attempts to make sense of his world. I saw it as a way to try to work through 
> or 
> around his illness. I connected it to the journal I keep or the emails I send 
> > to 
> > colleagues (Like on the mosaic listserv) The process of writing helps me to 
> > understand. For Van Gogh, maybe it is the process of painting that helped 
> > him to make sense. 
> > 
> > I loved the Kevin example too, but it left me with a lot more questions. How 
> > did he really make that much meaning as a kindergartener from this very 
> > difficult text? Was it the process of creating his model that he made sense of 
> > it? Was he a reader at all? What or how much did he actually read and how much 
> > came from schema and reasoning it through? This was the one place in the 
> > entire book that I felt needed more detail, more investigation, more 
> > explanation. 
> > 
> > Do you think he was taught to investigate this way? Surely his class was set 
> > up for that and probably his teacher modeled...but I bet that a lot of it 
> > was the natural curiousity of the very young... 
> > 
> > Your students may have giggled and rolled their eyes, but I would keep it 
> > up. You probably made them feel uncomfortable because they don't yet see 
> > themselves as scholars. I bet you, with time, they'll get there. 
> > I am still working on this too. Let's talk about this some more during the 
> > school year...I didn't have too much time to try much before the school year 
> > ended... 
> > Jennifer 
> > 
> 
> ================================================================================ 
> = 
> 
> > n a message dated 7/17/2008 11:39:57 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, 
> > write at att.net writes: 
> > 
> > Yes! There is a great sense of pride that comes from working through 
> > something difficult. 
> > 
> > I'm going to share some more of my struggles with To Understand right now. :) 
> > 
> > Tell me what you all make of the information about Van Gogh on page 48 that 
> > says, "He became a blind painting machine... He no longer thought about his 
> > painting." 
> > 
> > I felt as if the example of Van Gogh was counterproductive. I wanted to 
> > hear about a painter who did think about his painting. Van Gogh struggled, 
> but 
> > I got the idea from To Understand that he struggled due to his mental 
> > illness. I wanted a clear cut example of someone who struggled to understand 
> > and 
> > think and try again. 
> > 
> > The example of the kindergartener, Kevin, a few pages later was more 
> > satisfying for me. I LOVED that kid. I wanted more insight into how Kevin 
> was 
> > taught to investigate so deeply. 
> > 
> > What have you all done to help students learn to look deeply and work to 
> > understand what interests them? I teach 8th grade, and when I shared my 
> > enthusiasm with my students last year about half of them rolled their eyes or 
> > giggled. Whew! That was hard on me. 
> > Jan 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------ 
> 
> Message: 2 
> Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 16:48:22 -0700 (PDT) 
> From: Phyllis Hinerman 
> Subject: Re: [Understand] Mostly Chapter 4 
> To: "Special Chat List for To Understand: New Horizons in Reading 
> Comprehension" 
> Message-ID: <253575.83169.qm at web62204.mail.re1.yahoo.com> 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii 
> 
> Jan, When I first heard Ellin's phrase: I know you don't know, but if you did 
> know, what would you say?, my reaction was about the same as what you described 
> - that will never work! Then, I watched Ellin use it with an adult at a 
> workshop with startling results! Later Ellin asked how it made her feel and the 
> teacher answered something like: 'At first I was mad at you for calling on me, 
> using that phrase and leaving all that wait time. But then I discovered I did 
> have something to say.' She added, 'I think if you'd have just gone on to 
> someone else I would have felt pretty dumb. But I felt like I had a good 
> answer!' 
> 
> We went back to our school and tried it out a little, and it worked there too. 
> Plus, I've seen it work with a sixth grade student. I think one of the keys is 
> calm wait time that suggests the confidence that a student can think and you 
> honestly expect a thoughtful answer. We're thinking the phrase somehow takes 
> the pressure off a student - you aren't looking for the one right answer, and 
> its OK to make a thoughtful guess. 
> 
> Phyllis 
> 
> --- On Sun, 8/3/08, write at att.net wrote: 
> 
> > From: write at att.net 
> > Subject: [Understand] Mostly Chapter 4 
> > To: "Special Chat List for "To Understand: New Horizons in 
> ReadingComprehension"" 
> > Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 3:50 PM 
> > I've tried to send this message more than once. I'm 
> > sorry if several different versions come through. 
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, Jennifer, what the reader brings to the text is 
> > important. I'm not a fan of Van Gogh, but I love Edward 
> > Hopper. All through chapter 4 I was stuck on what seemed to 
> > me to be a negative catergorization of Hopper's art. 
> > 
> > I also felt that I wanted more information about the 
> > kindergartener Kevin. I wrote in my previous message (far 
> > below) 
> > 
> > > The example of the kindergartener, Kevin, a few pages 
> > later was more 
> > > satisfying for me. I LOVED that kid. I wanted more 
> > insight into how Kevin was 
> > > taught to investigate so deeply. 
> > 
> > and in my book I wrote that Kevin taught himself how to 
> > work so hard and think so deeply. 
> > 
> > I am also wondering if what works with elementary students 
> > might not work with middle school students. Are there any 
> > middle school (grades 6 - 8) teachers on this list? On page 
> > 77 I had a question about the teacher who responded to a 
> > student by saying, "I know you don't know." 
> > In my class, that statement would cause uproar. I would be 
> > accused of calling someone stupid. Can you really say that 
> > in your classes? 
> > Jan 
> > 
> > 
> > -------------- Original message from CNJPALMER at aol.com: 
> > -------------- 
> > 
> > 
> > > 
> > > Jan 
> > > Well, here we have another example of how important it 
> > is to think about 
> > what the reader brings to the text. I loved the Van Gogh 
> > example because to 
> > > me, 
> > > the painting itself WAS the thinking...visual 
> > representations of his 
> > > attempts to make sense of his world. I saw it as a way 
> > to try to work through or 
> > around his illness. I connected it to the journal I keep or 
> > the emails I send 
> > > to 
> > > colleagues (Like on the mosaic listserv) The process 
> > of writing helps me to 
> > > understand. For Van Gogh, maybe it is the process of 
> > painting that helped 
> > > him to make sense. 
> > > 
> > > I loved the Kevin example too, but it left me with a 
> > lot more questions. How 
> > > did he really make that much meaning as a 
> > kindergartener from this very 
> > > difficult text? Was it the process of creating his 
> > model that he made sense of 
> > > it? Was he a reader at all? What or how much did he 
> > actually read and how much 
> > > came from schema and reasoning it through? This was 
> > the one place in the 
> > > entire book that I felt needed more detail, more 
> > investigation, more 
> > > explanation. 
> > > 
> > > Do you think he was taught to investigate this way? 
> > Surely his class was set 
> > > up for that and probably his teacher modeled...but I 
> > bet that a lot of it 
> > > was the natural curiousity of the very young... 
> > > 
> > > Your students may have giggled and rolled their eyes, 
> > but I would keep it 
> > > up. You probably made them feel uncomfortable because 
> > they don't yet see 
> > > themselves as scholars. I bet you, with time, 
> > they'll get there. 
> > > I am still working on this too. Let's talk about 
> > this some more during the 
> > > school year...I didn't have too much time to try 
> > much before the school year 
> > > ended... 
> > > Jennifer 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> ================================================================================ 
> = 
> > 
> > > n a message dated 7/17/2008 11:39:57 P.M. Eastern 
> > Daylight Time, 
> > > write at att.net writes: 
> > > 
> > > Yes! There is a great sense of pride that comes from 
> > working through 
> > > something difficult. 
> > > 
> > > I'm going to share some more of my struggles with 
> > To Understand right now. :) 
> > > 
> > > Tell me what you all make of the information about 
> > Van Gogh on page 48 that 
> > > says, "He became a blind painting machine... He 
> > no longer thought about his 
> > > painting." 
> > > 
> > > I felt as if the example of Van Gogh was 
> > counterproductive. I wanted to 
> > > hear about a painter who did think about his painting. 
> > Van Gogh struggled, but 
> > > I got the idea from To Understand that he struggled 
> > due to his mental 
> > > illness. I wanted a clear cut example of someone who 
> > struggled to understand 
> > > and 
> > > think and try again. 
> > > 
> > > The example of the kindergartener, Kevin, a few pages 
> > later was more 
> > > satisfying for me. I LOVED that kid. I wanted more 
> > insight into how Kevin was 
> > > taught to investigate so deeply. 
> > > 
> > > What have you all done to help students learn to look 
> > deeply and work to 
> > > understand what interests them? I teach 8th grade, 
> > and when I shared my 
> > > enthusiasm with my students last year about half of 
> > them rolled their eyes or 
> > > giggled. Whew! That was hard on me. 
> > > Jan 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________ 
> > Understand mailing list 
> > Understand at literacyworkshop.org 
> > http://literacyworkshop.org/mailman/listinfo/understand_literacyworkshop.org 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> End of Understand Digest, Vol 6, Issue 4 
> **************************************** 